Ekstatik dilemma

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akamatsu
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by akamatsu »

In the context of cartridges and music, what does "analytical" mean? I've read the word used in this context before, but never understood nor heard what it could be referring to.
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by FangfossFlyer »

akamatsu wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:29 pm In the context of cartridges and music, what does "analytical" mean? I've read the word used in this context before, but never understood nor heard what it could be referring to.
.

For me, when I refer to something being too "analytical" I am not saying that it is not capturing the performance and the music recorded but some how it sounds almost too precise and in so doing looses some of the feel of the performance. Perhaps, for me, with an 'analytical' reproduction I end up listening to the notes rather than the overall feel and vibe of the performance.

But hey, just my stab at what "analytical" means to me and I am sure it is total bull to everyone else.

All the best,

Richard

.
Last edited by FangfossFlyer on Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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vincent
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by vincent »

akamatsu wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:29 pm In the context of cartridges and music, what does "analytical" mean? I've read the word used in this context before, but never understood nor heard what it could be referring to.
I can't speak for @OpenAirFan or @FangfossFlyer , but by '(over-) analytical' I was referring in this context to a certain quality of musical presentation that (I felt) involved the listener's attention being drawn to individual components of the recording, at the expense of overall coherence. It's possible that the Ekstatik hadn't enough miles on the clock, and/or I might simply have become accustomed to Lyra's sonic signature. It could also also be that the Ekstatik lacked synergy with my particular deck (TP plinth and counter-weight). Or maybe the lure of the Etna for the same cost as an Ekstatik (after p-ex with Kleos) was just too tempting! :smt017
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by akamatsu »

FangfossFlyer wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:00 pm
akamatsu wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:29 pm In the context of cartridges and music, what does "analytical" mean? I've read the word used in this context before, but never understood nor heard what it could be referring to.
.

For me, when I refer to something being too "analytical" I am not saying that it is not capturing the performance and the music recorded but some how it sounds almost too precise and in so doing looses some of the feel of the performance. Perhaps, for me, with an 'analytical' reproduction I end up listening to the notes rather than the overall feel of performance.

But hey, just my stab at what "analytical" means to me and I am sure it is total bull to everyone else.

All the best,

Richard

.
Thank you Richard. This is helpful. I can relate to a system resolving so much detail that one can focus on the resolution and individual instruments and notes. It occurs to me as a sort of fascination that can be distracting. However, I think with some time to adapt, the fascination goes away and better resolution leads to more music.
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by akamatsu »

vincent wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:30 pm
akamatsu wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:29 pm In the context of cartridges and music, what does "analytical" mean? I've read the word used in this context before, but never understood nor heard what it could be referring to.
I can't speak for @OpenAirFan or @FangfossFlyer , but by '(over-) analytical' I was referring in this context to a certain quality of musical presentation that (I felt) involved the listener's attention being drawn to individual components of the recording, at the expense of overall coherence. It's possible that the Ekstatik hadn't enough miles on the clock, and/or I might simply have become accustomed to Lyra's sonic signature. It could also also be that the Ekstatik lacked synergy with my particular deck (TP plinth and counter-weight). Or maybe the lure of the Etna for the same cost as an Ekstatik (after p-ex with Kleos) was just too tempting! :smt017
Thank you for your reply. Please see my reply above as I think it applicable here as well. To me, I guess analytical is what I'm striving for in my system. That is, I want to most resolution possible. To me, more musical detail equates to more music.
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by FangfossFlyer »

akamatsu wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:40 pm
vincent wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:30 pm
akamatsu wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:29 pm In the context of cartridges and music, what does "analytical" mean? I've read the word used in this context before, but never understood nor heard what it could be referring to.
I can't speak for @OpenAirFan or @FangfossFlyer , but by '(over-) analytical' I was referring in this context to a certain quality of musical presentation that (I felt) involved the listener's attention being drawn to individual components of the recording, at the expense of overall coherence. It's possible that the Ekstatik hadn't enough miles on the clock, and/or I might simply have become accustomed to Lyra's sonic signature. It could also also be that the Ekstatik lacked synergy with my particular deck (TP plinth and counter-weight). Or maybe the lure of the Etna for the same cost as an Ekstatik (after p-ex with Kleos) was just too tempting! :smt017
Thank you for your reply. Please see my reply above as I think it applicable here as well. To me, I guess analytical is what I'm striving for in my system. That is, I want to most resolution possible. To me, more musical detail equates to more music.

Interesting and food for thought, thanks.
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by Sagatun »

alto wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:01 pm
Sagatun wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 10:50 am
The system was the big Linn System, which sounded terrible with the Kandid but with Ekstatik music came into the room. I also find the Kandid to be on the analytical side and the Ekstatik to be much more musical.

Sagatun you reflect the essential point that a superior cell enhances the greater presence of the music!
I can also imagine the added flexibility of articulation and emotion. Kandid will remain a good cartridge for its price; it's already excellent at this level.


Without question alto. And the market knows about the qualities, as I received almost twice the price in a private sale than the dealer offered in exchange.
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by sktn77a »

I would propose that adjectives and adverbs mean something only to the person who use them. I've never really understood what somebody means when the say a piece of equipment sounds "analytical", "musical", "pace", "timing", "dark", etc, etc.
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Dan Steel
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

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sktn77a wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:48 pm I would propose that adjectives and adverbs mean something only to the person who use them. I've never really understood what somebody means when the say a piece of equipment sounds "analytical", "musical", "pace", "timing", "dark", etc, etc.
Same here :smt023
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by evil_C »

I’ve never understood what Naim Audio means when it states its equipment delivers ‘PRAT’, which stands for pace, rhythm and timing. As far as I’m concerned these are all delivered by the musical performance, not the equipment.
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

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evil_C wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 8:09 am I’ve never understood what Naim Audio means when it states its equipment delivers ‘PRAT’, which stands for pace, rhythm and timing. As far as I’m concerned these are all delivered by the musical performance, not the equipment.
I’ve known a few PRAT’s over the years :smt023
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by Nestor Turton »

sktn77a wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:48 pm I would propose that adjectives and adverbs mean something only to the person who use them. I've never really understood what somebody means when the say a piece of equipment sounds "analytical", "musical", "pace", "timing", "dark", etc, etc.
Me too - subjective reviews mean nothing to me, I have to hear for myself to appreciate a piece of kit. Fortunately, I’m content with what I have so don’t need to worry if a component sounds “fruity” or ”meaty”.
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by alto »

Prat also means grip and mastery.
At the time of the Linn and Naim agreement, some dealers said that Linn was first and foremost the melodic line, Naim the neutrality and mastery.
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by Wenge1 »

Dan Steel wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:50 am
sktn77a wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:48 pm I would propose that adjectives and adverbs mean something only to the person who use them. I've never really understood what somebody means when the say a piece of equipment sounds "analytical", "musical", "pace", "timing", "dark", etc, etc.
Same here :smt023
.
And here too. In fact these days, the more I concentrate on trying to precisely analyse why I might prefer 'X' to 'Y' the more I'm likely to end up deep inside a self-dug rabbit hole ........... :smt023
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by FangfossFlyer »

Wenge1 wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:30 am
Dan Steel wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:50 am
sktn77a wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:48 pm I would propose that adjectives and adverbs mean something only to the person who use them. I've never really understood what somebody means when the say a piece of equipment sounds "analytical", "musical", "pace", "timing", "dark", etc, etc.
Same here :smt023
.
And here too. In fact these days, the more I concentrate on trying to precisely analyse why I might prefer 'X' to 'Y' the more I'm likely to end up deep inside a self-dug rabbit hole ........... :smt023
Same here! :D
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by OpenAirFan »

The linguistic evaluation of hearing is comparable to the linguistic evaluation of a wine. First, of course, you have to listen or taste it yourself. Then you have to learn from experienced people how to describe certain characteristics. And then you can talk about it with others. Without using the same (!) terms for the same characteristics, the whole thing is of course pointless. In this respect, it would be great if there were audio seminars like wine seminars.
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

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I’m going to suggest “Tunedem” and then retire a safe distance…

in an A vs B comparison, is the Tune easier to follow on one or are they both the same, in which case go for the cheaper one. That way, I don’t have to explain the differences, other than better, worse, same. Works fine for me. :smt035

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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by FangfossFlyer »

.
Each to their own evaluation technique but I have never taken to "tune dem" evaluations especially when they consist of quick A-Bs... but that's me.

For me I like to live with a bit of Hi-Fi at home in my system for a week or so and then when it is removed if I miss it then it was good if I don't miss it then it was no for me.

Although, I must admit when I first heard the first edition of Linn's Lingo, way back in time, I instantly new, from the first note, that it was for me. A similar experience happened with Naim's Superline and NAP500!

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vincent
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by vincent »

Moomintroll wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 4:39 pm I’m going to suggest “Tunedem” and then retire a safe distance…

Dave
I've owned Linn kit going back some 40 years, and have never used, or even understood, 'tune-dem.' When I hear an improvement following a significant* upgrade, the 'pleasure effect' is instantaneous: the music is simply more real and enjoyable. Perhaps it's when this effect is absent that one tries to articulate the reason in terms of an adjective (analytical, clinical, inorganic, tuneless, etc).
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by FangfossFlyer »

FangfossFlyer wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:08 pm .
Each to their own evaluation technique but I have never taken to "tune dem" evaluations especially when they consist of quick A-Bs... but that's me.

For me I like to live with a bit of Hi-Fi at home in my system for a week or so and then when it is removed if I miss it then it was good if I don't miss it then it was no for me.

Although, I must admit when I first heard the first edition of Linn's Lingo, way back in time, I instantly new, from the first note, that it was for me. A similar experience happened with Naim's Superline and NAP500!

Richard

Coming back on topic: it of course means that for me, as I said at the start of this, that later in the year I may need a home loan of the Ekstatik in my system for a while and then take it from there.

Richard
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by Moomintroll »

vincent wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:50 pm
Moomintroll wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 4:39 pm I’m going to suggest “Tunedem” and then retire a safe distance…

Dave
I've owned Linn kit going back some 40 years, and have never used, or even understood, 'tune-dem.' When I hear an improvement following a significant* upgrade, the 'pleasure effect' is instantaneous: the music is simply more real and enjoyable. Perhaps it's when this effect is absent that one tries to articulate the reason in terms of an adjective (analytical, clinical, inorganic, tuneless, etc).
That’s probably “spot on”. :smt023

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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by Andyt916 »

Apologies if I'm speaking out of turn here, but, for me, it comes down to two things; musicality and detail. To explain further, musicality is what makes me tap my feet and want to get up and dance (despite my advancing years) and detail is being able to hear the "twang" of the incoming guitar solo or the "tssschhht" of the cymbal.

To put into context - as an example I well remember when I had the Karousel fitted. I was listening to Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick and, midway through the second side I was desperate to visit the smallest room in the house, but could simply not tear myself away from my seat (no furniture or animals ended up being harmed, thankfully) :D
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by FangfossFlyer »

Andyt916 wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:30 pm Apologies if I'm speaking out of turn here, but, for me, it comes down to two things; musicality and detail. To explain further, musicality is what makes me tap my feet and want to get up and dance (despite my advancing years) and detail is being able to hear the "twang" of the incoming guitar solo or the "tssschhht" of the cymbal.

To put into context - as an example I well remember when I had the Karousel fitted. I was listening to Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick and, midway through the second side I was desperate to visit the smallest room in the house, but could simply not tear myself away from my seat (no furniture or animals ended up being harmed, thankfully) :D
Nicely put! 👍😁
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Re: Ekstatik dilemma

Post by Nestor Turton »

FangfossFlyer wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:08 pm
Although, I must admit when I first heard the first edition of Linn's Lingo, way back in time, I instantly new, from the first note, that it was for me. A similar experience happened with Naim's Superline and NAP500!

Richard
You are a lucky man, good sir. I, too, had a Naim SuperLine with SuperCap, but sadly did not share your experience and wished I’d kept my Dynavector P75. The SuperCap buzzed and try as I might I could not find any wasps, hornets or bees in the vicinity and the SuperLine picked up a foreign radio station (Czech I think and quite tuneful). Still my helpful dealer came to the rescue and I switched to Urika and Radikal and now have version 2 of both and am ecstatic (even tho’ I only have a Krystal) with the results.

In the dealer’s demo room the same SL/SCap worked fine and sounded really nice. My cottage hates linear PSUs with large toroidal transformers. Sometimes you just can’t win.

And the moral of my story is you have to listen for yourself at home as no matter how well something measures or sounds in a showroom it may disappoint at home. Of course, it may not …
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