Roksan Hybrid Vs Linn Hybrid V Linn LP12

[Paul246]

Hi again folks,

New motor mount, looks pretty utilitarian as a 1" x 4" x 5" solid aluminium machine block, all silicone damped and works a treat. It'll look better in matt or satin black with the corners rounded slightly, but for now it does what it's meant to. Easily adjustable as well as the silicone tubes just swell and fit more snugly.
All the best Paul.

[Paul246]

Hi peter if you're still reading,
Can you do me one last favour and have a listen to this last track? I'm pretty sure this is the reference sound for this turntable, I've listened to my usual variety of Lps for two days and not touched a thing, which I'm beginning to think, probably indicates there's nothing more to do.
Your particular analytic listening skills will hopefully confirm this, but as I've already said, confirmation is key and you are definitely the person to tell me your honest representation of what you hear, which I am always grateful for.
If you could find the time I would that would be great.
If anyone else wants to listen, Pm me and I would be happy to send you a link to my Google drive. Also bear in mind that this is an unedited digital recording of an analogue source, but usually pretty close to what I hear. The track Peter listens to is from a 50 year old copy of Supertramp's "Crime of the Century", so there is some surface noise associated with that. This is not apparent on newer Lps.

Thanks Paul.

[petecallaghan]

Hi Paul. I'm away at present but back at the weekend so will listen then.

[Paul246]

That's great Peter (that you'll listen) but hey, I sent you the wrong tracks. I'll delete them and send the correct ones. I tend to do five or so at a time with different settings to compare for myself, as you may understand naming them differently so the computer will save them is problematic so I sometimes (like this time) get the wrong one's.
Thanks for listening though and for analytics, I think I have it at another reference point and this is going to be difficult to improve on I feel.
Back to the silicone rubber mat again as well, seems to present the music better.
All the best and thanks again.

[petecallaghan]

I finally had a chance to listen to the tracks you sent.

On School, after harmonica the background is a bit more ominous than the previous track I listened to. Overall the track is a bit more expressive, it's a nice improvement, although not as big as some of the other previous improvements.
Sexy boy has much much more groove than the previous versions - it’s compelling.

[Paul246]

Thanks for taking the time to listen and feed back Pete.
As Supertramp would say "It's coming along".
I've already got a lot more out of it, but it's finally coming down to one or two alteration at a time now, which means it's nearly finished.
Thanks very much for your help Pete. You have been an absolute star.
All the best. Paul.

[Paul246]

Summary and Comparison of both hand built turntables.
Linn Hybrid Ref 1
Roksan Nima tonearm Mk 1 with upgraded counterweight
Ortofon Black cartridge 1.75 grams 05.-1g Tracking
Cirkus bearing
Diamond shaped 10mm alloy chassis and arm board
Standard inner and outer platters with Linn felt mat
Tri Metal legs and bushes (10mm sorbothane suspension pads)
Linn motor and belt (carbon with triangular spread alloy mounts)
Shelf is wall mounted metal with 2 x 10mm by 20mm alloy struts across with 4mm sorbothane between these and the shelf which is a 20mm thick marble base.
Linn Ref 2 (formerly Roksan Hybrid)
Linn Ittok LV II tonearm
Ortofon Black Cartridge 1.75 grams .9g tracking
Peak bearing
Tranquillity Mag Lev.
Triangular chassis 10mm alloy with extended arm board mount and arm board
Krown platter and standard inner with silicone rubber mat
Bi metal legs (4mm silicone suspension pads)
Linn Motor and belt (solid alloy/carbon mount) 4mm silicone mounts and tube.
Shelf is wall mounted onto metal runners with 2 x 30 mm alloy struts with sorbothane between these and the 6mm glass shelf. Mounted on top of the glass is a Townshend Seismic sink.
So that’s the set up for both of the turntables.
How I got there is another story.
Just to give you an idea of the balancing process (getting everything to work together), at first I was doing up to a rough guess of fifty adjustments/mods per day on both, as this reduced and reduced to something like five per day I knew I was getting somewhere. Most of my experiments didn’t work but some worked elsewhere, but with that many going on daily, add this, remove that, try this somewhere else, try that with this instead etc. This eventually dropped to maybe just one or three per day. The trick then was to analyse (more scientifically) what they were and why they had worked and what else those would work together with. Sounds pretty random but really wasn’t at all, I was simply following trails to find the balancing components.
Whereas the scientific experiments all seemed to work fine, the bi metal |(Linn Rr2) and tri metal legs (Linn Hybrid) did exactly what I thought they would, the silicone/sorbothane also worked. Torquing bolts and letting the pressure of till it balanced worked also. In actual fact the tri metal legs on the Linn hybrid meant it made little difference running it without the Tranquillity, bonus.
So what happens when most parts are balanced, along with the scientific ones, is the experiments drop off completely and calculated attempts come in to play, maybe just two or three per day, until I’m lucky enough to be trying one thing at a time. I have to mention here that the Krown platter threw a massive spanner in the works and put the Linn R2 back about a month as nothing worked the same with that. Fortunately this is now back to one/two a day again and still in process.
Anyway, Firstly the Linn Hybrid R1, it presents the sound stage as wide, spacious and airy, clarity is very good, detail is very good and it’s a nice airy ethereal sound with plenty of depth. This turntable though, has a subtlety about its presentation. it’s a more refined and grown up sound, although it does manage everything I throw at it pretty much in its stride. This one is finished.
The Linn R2 is a different animal altogether, for a start it is louder, much louder in its presentation, it’s not brash or in your face but has so much more in the way of presence, it certainly says it’s here and doing what it should. The sound stage is presented in a way that makes my room & me, feel small and it has a real urgent ferocity that is as tight as a drum, very highly detailed and frosty clear. It has more of everything the Linn Hybrid has in spades, but is in no way subtle or grown up. It’s a proper rocker but will rock anything I throw at it with finesse.
I’ll still be working on this for a while as I’m pretty sure that the bushings I fitted on the Linn Hybrid legs will help to squeeze more out of this Linn R2 and with more subtle changes as time goes on should improve further. For now though, I’m extremely pleased with the performance of both of these turntables.
So, to finalise, just in terms of those two up against the Linn Lp 12.
Both of these beat the LP 12 hands down I’m afraid to say, the Linn LP12 sounds like a Linn and without the use of the various items that Linn sell to make it sound better, I doubt it would ever match up to either. I make that statement based purely in terms of getting the very best mechanical analogue reproduction out of just the turntable, cartridge and arm with the aforementioned componentry, (which the Lp 12 has also been furnished with at times), I wanted to do this without resorting to using any digital processing enhancements. Call me old fashioned if you want.
I’m sorry that’s how it’s ended up, but if it had ended up any other way, I think you know by now, I would’ve said so. I’m also pretty sure (with the experience gained) if I went back to the Linn and had another go at it, I could make it sound better but I’m not sure it would be worth the effort to be honest, without going in a completely different direction. Like the Linn upgrade path which does what it should and anyone who wants that sound, in my humble opinion should stick with that route as it certainly seems to work to an extremely high degree. I take my hat off to anyone who has that kind of money to spend (but it certainly isn’t me).
I’m not really sure what either of these turntables cost me, or if I’m that concerned, but I guess that a new Ulrika and a battered 80/90ss LP 12 off Ebay would about cover all cost of both, other than the amount of hours spent doing them. In reality though, I offset all of those hours, against being kept busy for a few months during winter. Add to that, the learning curves that were certainly very intriguing, although sometimes highly frustrating. But in all I guess it was for experience. I’ve learned so much and have two excellent turntables to show for a winters work.
So I think that’s a wrap for these turntables, although my friend gave me some engineering alloy plate (true flat) which I’m itching to use on another chassis. Maybe next winter, as now it’s spring and the sun is coming, so my interest is in my other 7 year long project, my motorbike.
Thanks for reading and for your interest in my projects, enjoy the music.
All the best. Paul.

[Paul246]

Hi Folks,
Just an short update.
I made a new motor mount for it from 20mm alloy block for the Linn hybrid and now feed that via Hercules power supply (which doesn't do a bad job to be honest), this is mainly so I can run both decks together. Just easier than swapping plugs with the VP electronics.
Still have to fit the fourth leg on this chassis (makes a real difference) but have to drill the chassis hole bigger to do that, so for another day.
I also added 600 grams of weight to the chassis around the main bearing, which I also did ages ago with the Linn ref 2.
So far with listening tests, the Linn Hybrid is showing a lot more promise, becoming a bit more dynamic in it's delivery, but still doesn't measure up to the other. I'm not sure if this is purely down to the Nima arm. It has loads of detail, depth and clarity, but it certainly doesn't have as much clout or presence or maybe it's just more subtle, time will tell.

The Linn Ref 2 (formerly Roksan hybrid) Is just about completed, Quad metal legs, bi metal mounting on the arm board, and surprisingly, a cork mat which seems to beat any other mat I've tried, it's a close match between that and the silicone rubber one, (which is on the Linn hybrid at the moment). This also has the fourth leg fitted. I still have the motor housing to round the edges on, but that's about it for that one.
Listening tests for this are showing ever decreasing improvements but it still has some scope. The dynamics on this are truly amazing. Detail, depth, control and power are it's strengths.

[Mr Onion]

via Hercules power supply

I used to have on on my LP12 many years replacing a worn out Valhalla. Great little PS that should serve you well.

[Paul246]

Hi Mr O,
Yes, it definitely does the job ok, I can't tell any difference between the Hercules and the Vinyl Passion to be honest. Although the switch takes a bit of getting used to and it takes a mite longer to get up to speed. But sound wise, I can't tell them apart.

[Paul246]

Hi again Folks,

Ok, so now the jigsaw puzzle that is my Linn Ref 2 (formerly Roksan Hybrid) is now complete.

I had the opportunity to upgrade the stylus to an Ortofon LVB 250, adjusted tracking etc to suit and can now declare that this turntable is finished.
The LVB has raised the bar enough to make me realise that this as good as I personally can possibly get this turntable to sound with the componentry I have at my disposal.

I have been looking at an Ekos and several moving coils but pulled myself back from the brink of falling into the Hi FI trap.
I'm totally happy with this sound and although with better componentry it could sound better, I'm not going down that route.

Peter, if you're still reading, would you like hear the final recordings and perhaps comment on the two tracks we've been assessing, I've just sent the last same two from the completed project and would be very happy to hear what you make of it. If there are areas that you think can be improved I'd be more than happy to try but I think this is it.

Anyway, thanks for reading, if anyone would like any particular details that I haven't covered in this build, please feel free to ask.

[petecallaghan]

Peter, if you're still reading, would you like hear the final recordings and perhaps comment on the two tracks we've been assessing, I've just sent the last same two from the completed project and would be very happy to hear what you make of it. If there are areas that you think can be improved I'd be more than happy to try but I think this is it.

Thanks Paul. I'll take a listen later this week.

[Paul246]

Hi again folks,
Not being one to stand still for long, or to stop my mind from working stuff out, I decided to update the bearing housing from aluminium to copper. I also fixed it in place with six copper bolts rather than three. Copper is definitely more sympathetic with the resonance of aluminium, so I replaced all the stainless steel bolts on the chassis and arm board to copper while I had it down, (this comes directly from my experience with the turntable legs).
While I had the chassis stripped I also took the opportunity to fix the chassis weights on the underside of the chassis (instead of resting on top with a 1mm rubber spacer). I used 8mm copper bolts for these also with 4mm silicone to damp them, the weights are stainless steel. These really seem to draw the resonance out of the chassis even more fixed this way.
The result?
Well it seems to make it all sound a bit more solid, like it has more body and seems to give the sound some more heft/depth, it sounds richer, bass is deeper and tighter. Clarity and detail seem to be enhanced rather than better, probably just the richer sound. In actual fact listening to Pink Floyds “Wish you were here” right now and everything just sounds better in a quality sort of way.
My wife (bless her) agrees and thinks it sounds awesome, although says I’m chasing perfection and will never find it. I think I’m just keeping myself busy using my hands and head, use it or lose it I reckon, especially during retirement.
This mod only cost around £25 for the copper disc and bolts (from China) a lot of thinking and working out and a few hours of fettling. I’m still trying arm heights and tracking, so we’ll see where that ends up, but in all this seems to have been a very worthwhile venture.
Sorry to keep posting in this thread, I always think I’m finished, but guess that may never be.
Thanks for reading. Paul.
By the way Peter, if you read this, those two tracks I sent are out of date ha ha.

[Paul246]

Hi folks,

Working on the Linn Hybrid now, although I had it sounding better, it unfortunately dropped onto one channel only. It wasn't the tonearm cable or the cartridge tabs so I'm rewiring the Nima arm as I think that's the problem.
I've got to admit though, I mainly wanted to have a look at how it was built as well and rewire with covered litz anyway.
Very nice and simple construction to be honest and easy enough to rewire. The soldering of litz wire is another thing altogether as the iron has to be really hot to burn off the lacquer from the litz wire before it will solder.
I'm not too sure about the quality of the original wiring or the way Roksan did it originally as it seemed unnecessarily complicated considering they could've just used better wire in the first place to save jointing mid wire, leaving just lacquer coated wires to rub on the arm neck, which I'm guessing is why it failed.
I may even run these wires to phono plugs to save me having to touch the arm again once it's fitted. Should be easy enough to work out.

[Paul246]

Hi again,

So the arm wiring on the Nima was a pain, mainly because of the Litz wire soldering and burning off the lacquer coating which also took the silk with it. Add to that fitting the foam for the internal wiring and getting the wires to run without interfering with the movement of the arm, definitely wasn't as straight forward as I first thought, but it's done anyway and sounds fine on first listen. Unfortunately I've been at at all day, so not really in the right mood to listen to anything with the attention it needs. There's also a very low hum which sounds like proximity rather than anything else, so I may have to move things, or re-check the wiring especially near the cartridge, or it may sort out when everything's hard wired rather than bodged to make sure it all works, we'll see. I'll let you know what that hum was when I find it.

I've still not decided whether to use phono plugs or the internal arm socket (which is a pain to do) and means re-soldering one complete end after I pull the spare wire through.

It feels like it's been a very hard day with far too much concentration, my glasses feel like they aren't working well enough, or my eyes and brain are just tired, so calling it a day. Tomorrow will be better, just hard wiring everything in place now I know it all works.

Thanks for reading and for your interest. Paul.

[Paul246]

Hi folks,

So regarding the Nima wiring and the low hum, it turns out this was also transferring onto my other deck due to the phono switch and the associated earths being onto both decks, this is for easy switching between decks and it's passive. There is no hum on the Linn ref 2 if I disconnect the offending earth from the Linn hybrid with the Roksan arm.

The problem I've isolated is with the Roksan arm and it's earthing procedure. This is done via a wire soldered onto circular copper strap at the cartridge end of the arm, this strap is held in place by the foam pressing it against the arm, and nothing else. I'm no electrician but I'm pretty sure this is not a great way to connect an earth, bearing in mind that the connection may have been better before I disturbed it of course, but it still seems a poor idea to me. I've always believed earth straps need to be solid and tight.

I haven't tried to remedy this as yet as this is thought process and conjecture only and unproven as yet, (other than isolating various things) but I'm pretty sure this is the problem as it's definitely a ground problem associated with the Roksan arm, (which also sound like a low frequency proximity hum) if the connection is poor. It would be a lot louder if it wasn't making any connection at all.

I at least know it was the arm wiring that was causing the drop out on one channel as I have two now.

So it looks like I'll be stripping the wiring out again and making that connection a lot more secure. I'll keep you posted whether it works or not. I'm not around next week so won't be trying anything till the week after.

Thanks for reading and your interest. Paul.