Ideal vs Practical Speaker Placement

[briardsrock]

I’ve been having a blast with Space Optimization and my new Selekt DSM and Majik Exaktbox-I with my 140s. The sound is incredible and I can’t stop listening to music, especially vinyl, everything is more beautiful!

I’ve also been learning and studying everything I can find on space optimization and I’ve made huge inroads. My Linn dealer described how to map my room by listening to my voice and/or clapping to create a “sounds neutral” rectangle within my listening room. Very cool. My wife helped me and once we got the hang of it it was pretty easy finding a rectangle within our larger room that was ideal for speaker placement. So, after my wife went to bed I moved the 140s about 3’ further into the room into the ideal speaker location area. I then re/ran optimization and then guess what? Well? Everything sounded significantly better than it ever had before! I listened to probably 20 lps, whole or in part, it was so fun and gorgeous sounding!

So, when my wife gets up and walks into the listening room she might faint because things have been moved around a little, so wish me luck!

Inevitably, to keep a semblance of peace, I’m going to need to move them back so they are not out away from the wall so far. So here is my question, in everyone’s experience, how well does space optimization do preserving excellent sound even though the speakers are not in their ideal positionand sound when you begin to move your speakers out of the ideal position?

Thx

[vincent]

As you know, Space gives you the option of selecting 'My speakers are in their practical position and I am able to determine their ideal location.' After inputting the data, the software should reproduce the ideal SQ (3' into the room) in your practical positions closer to the wall. I don't have direct experience of how well this works in practice.

I have however experimented with 'virtual tune-dem', which involves guesstimating various hypothetical ideal positions and evaluating what sounds best. I used this technique to establish that in my case the practical speaker positions are close to ideal anyway, so there is no need to differentiate in SO.

[timster]

I actually had the opposite experience using virtual ideal positioning. I couldn't find any place where the result was better, or even as good as, the no ideal option.

[timster]

You'd have thought, with all the information on the room and your listening position, and the speakers, and SO being so sophisticated, it should be able to deduce the ideal position itself.

Maybe it does if you select the no ideal option.

[akamatsu]

I've done the "know ideal, speakers in practical" option. I used a similar method as you, that is, listening for reflections whilst speaking. I then used "virtual tunedem" and listened. I kept SO with these settings for quite a while. I had a dealer from Vancouver visit my house. He suggested that since things sounded so good without SO engaged, assume the speakers are in their ideal location. I made the adjustment in SO and things sounded better. I can't remember what changes happened with my system that would cause this 180 degree reversal. Perhaps the change happened with the listener. Especially my bass preference.

Ideal position out into the room and practical near the wall would reduce the bass. I got more bass with "speakers in ideal."

[Moomintroll]

You'd have thought, with all the information on the room and your listening position, and the speakers, and SO being so sophisticated, it should be able to deduce the ideal position itself.

Maybe it does if you select the no ideal option.

No. It categorically doesn’t. That would be witchcraft.

[timster]

You'd have thought, with all the information on the room and your listening position, and the speakers, and SO being so sophisticated, it should be able to deduce the ideal position itself.

Maybe it does if you select the no ideal option.

No. It categorically doesn’t. That would be witchcraft.

AI could do it....

[briardsrock]

Here is a diagram with notations of my initial observations of speaker placement and the affects of Linn Space Optimization. Last night after darling beautiful wife (she is also a pitch perfect singer) helped establish the "neutral" zone, I began to also clearly 'hear" the neutral rectangle too. After darling beautiful wife retired for bed, I moved the speakers and my chair into ideal RED locations and ran SO. Needless to say, I am absolutely blown away after really only working on this one week! I was up until 2am I was soooooo blown away.

Thx to everyone hear who gave me advice on their experiences with SO, very helpful! Also, the Linn help desk was awesome and answered everything I hadn't been able to figure out over the last 3 days. They literally answered evey SO question I threw at them with great explanations.

And, my LP 12 is receiving the full set of upgrades on Tuesday (KRAD2, URIKA 2, Karousel, Keel, EKOS SE, EBI Khumar)! I may self combust before then with excitement, I need to go record shopping to calm myself down !




postscript: I did A/B comparisons of Qobuz vs several of my favorite LPs and even with my LP12 at its current level, I either preferred the LP12 greatly or worst case, slightly. A couple Yello songs were the "closest" Qobuz was to the LP12. I realize I am at Klimax version only with digital so perhaps with Organik, the digital would have defeated the LP12 but this wasn't the case last night. By the toime Tuesday rolls around my hunch is the LP12 will be greatly preferred over most Qobuz and TIDAL if the source materials (analog and digital) are both as best as they can be.

However, I know I've capped myself at Katalyst DAC for the time being with the Majik Exaktbox-I , and I will be looki g over the next few years to somehow get to Organik, because the Selekt DSM with Exaktbox-I and active 140s and Katalyst is already producing such incredible music and the selection and ease of use is mind blowing, how could I not possibly eventually pursue Organik (or whatever might be even better) a few yrs down the road?!

[timster]

Maybe I‘m wrong but I am under the impression that Ideal/Practical is intended for keeping the listening position unchanged.

Yes. There's no way of incorporating an ideal listening position.

You should find the ideal speaker positions when in your fixed listening position. From the diagrams, the ideal speaker positions should be shifted to the left in line with the actual listening position.

Obviously there's an issue with the protruding wall though.

[briardsrock]

For sure, if you can place the speakers and yourself in the ideal locations, SO doesn't need to know or care what the practical locations are.

Maybe I‘m wrong but I am under the impression that Ideal/Practical is intended for keeping the listening position unchanged.

[briardsrock]

Tim, do you mean my "ideal" as indicated in red, I would/should shift the left speaker slightly to the right to truly be in the "most ideal" zone? You are right, but I made a decision that it was "close enough" by doing a voice test at the position of the left red speaker and it was not really quite getting strange sounding yet at the location I placed the speaker.

Maybe I‘m wrong but I am under the impression that Ideal/Practical is intended for keeping the listening position unchanged.

Yes. There's no way of incorporating an ideal listening position.

You should find the ideal speaker positions when in your fixed listening position. From the diagrams, the ideal speaker positions should be shifted to the left in line with the actual listening position.

Obviously there's an issue with the protruding wall though.

[timster]

Actually no, I was thinking the actual listening position should be central between the ideal speaker positions. As there is no ideal listening position that would mean they would both have to shift to the left.

At the end of the day, if you're happy with the results then that's all that counts. SO also corrects for timing differences between the speakers and listening position so as long as you tell it the actual one, not your ideal one, it should be fine.

[briardsrock]

After the first couple of optimizations my "music memory" said, "ok, where's the bass?" So I slid the optimization to the right, which lessens the overall SO affect, but the bass I've been accustomed to, begins to come back the further I move the slider to the right, but you are also turning off SO more and more as well, and I found out I was missing the benefits of SO, the beautiful clarity, more than I enjoyed more bass coming back.

So, I have ended up back at the Linn default 80 20 slider and I am really pleased at this point. Could I use more bass, hmmmm, maybe, I am not sure. When my Linn dealer comes over next week he says he has some ideas that I haven't thought of on speaker placement that I've not thought of! Plus, I know the changes to my LP12 is going to improve everything as well as the bass!

I've done the "know ideal, speakers in practical" option. I used a similar method as you, that is, listening for reflections whilst speaking. I then used "virtual tunedem" and listened. I kept SO with these settings for quite a while. I had a dealer from Vancouver visit my house. He suggested that since things sounded so good without SO engaged, assume the speakers are in their ideal location. I made the adjustment in SO and things sounded better. I can't remember what changes happened with my system that would cause this 180 degree reversal. Perhaps the change happened with the listener. Especially my bass preference.

Ideal position out into the room and practical near the wall would reduce the bass. I got more bass with "speakers in ideal."

[briardsrock]

Still not following you, maybe my diagram is confusing? The red speakers and listening positions are all in the ideal rectangle with the possible exception that the left speaker "might" be just a tad too far to the left. The red star (me the listener) is in between the two red speakers. And, for the time being the red configuration is the actual, this is the way the room is setup right now and the sound is pretty glorious, as good as I've ever experienced. Are we talking about different things? Thx!

Actually no, I was thinking the actual listening position should be central between the ideal speaker positions. As there is no ideal listening position that would mean they would both have to shift to the left.

At the end of the day, if you're happy with the results then that's all that counts. SO also corrects for timing differences between the speakers and listening position so as long as you tell it the actual one, not your ideal one, it should be fine.

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[Moomintroll]

“ After the first couple of optimizations my "music memory" said, "ok, where's the bass?" So I slid the optimization to the right, which lessens the overall SO affect, but the bass I've been accustomed to, begins to come back the further I move the slider to the right, but you are also turning off SO more and more as well, and I found out I was missing the benefits of SO, the beautiful clarity, more than I enjoyed more bass coming back.”

This is to be expected. When you’ve listened to music previously, you’ve grown accustomed to the level of bass that your room modes add to the mix. Unfortunately, bass modes only occur at specific frequencies, determined by your room dimensions.

SO removes these bass peaks leaving you with more of the mix that the artist/producer/mixing/mastering engineer intended.

My suggestion for anyone trying SO for the first time (or even revisiting it) is to live with it for a while without jumping in to adjustments. After a few days, try switching it off to see if you still prefer what you had before. I run my SO Optimisation at 85/15. I believe I’m not alone in doing that.

[Moomintroll]

another dead post. can be deleted, but how?

I’m not aware that you can delete “dead” posts. I imagine that the moderators can if they feel it necessary. I normally just edit the post content to “duplicate post”or “posted in error” I did try, “please ignore” but found that most did that with my posts anyway…

[akamatsu]

After the first couple of optimizations my "music memory" said, "ok, where's the bass?" So I slid the optimization to the right, which lessens the overall SO affect, but the bass I've been accustomed to, begins to come back the further I move the slider to the right, but you are also turning off SO more and more as well, and I found out I was missing the benefits of SO, the beautiful clarity, more than I enjoyed more bass coming back.

So, I have ended up back at the Linn default 80 20 slider and I am really pleased at this point. Could I use more bass, hmmmm, maybe, I am not sure. When my Linn dealer comes over next week he says he has some ideas that I haven't thought of on speaker placement that I've not thought of! Plus, I know the changes to my LP12 is going to improve everything as well as the bass!

I've done the "know ideal, speakers in practical" option. I used a similar method as you, that is, listening for reflections whilst speaking. I then used "virtual tunedem" and listened. I kept SO with these settings for quite a while. I had a dealer from Vancouver visit my house. He suggested that since things sounded so good without SO engaged, assume the speakers are in their ideal location. I made the adjustment in SO and things sounded better. I can't remember what changes happened with my system that would cause this 180 degree reversal. Perhaps the change happened with the listener. Especially my bass preference.

Ideal position out into the room and practical near the wall would reduce the bass. I got more bass with "speakers in ideal."

I think you are trying to do too much with SO at this point. Perhaps do a simple setup, then refine from there. I would place the M140s a minimum of 23cm from the front wall per Linn's recommendation. Then place the speakers and listening position such that the distance from ear to speaker is 1.83 times the distance between the two speakers. Listen with SO off. If it sounds good, not perfect, then call this the ideal location. Then, "Speaker in ideal location."

Keep it simple for now. Do this, then at a later time, you can refine by straying from default settings, and applying ideal and practical locations.

On your floor plan, assume up is north. Can you move the speakers to the west wall?

[entdgc]

So, I have ended up back at the Linn default 80 20 slider and I am really pleased at this point. Could I use more bass, hmmmm, maybe, I am not sure. When my Linn dealer comes over next week he says he has some ideas that I haven't thought of on speaker placement that I've not thought of! Plus, I know the changes to my LP12 is going to improve everything as well as the bass!

The advice on here to live with what you have for a while is sound. I have posted on here before about my experience of learning to differentiate bass from boom - it takes time. In the meantime you may want to experiment with the Bass Shelf in your Linn Account under Advanced -> Custom Filters. You can use it to add a touch of low frequency bass... I also found adding a subsonic filter (in the same page) was helpful - it cuts output below a set frequency so your system doesn't spend effort trying to reproduce frequencies your speakers can't!

[Moomintroll]

“ I also found adding a subsonic filter (in the same page) was helpful - it cuts output below a set frequency so your system doesn't spend effort trying to reproduce frequencies your speakers can't!”

Subsonic filter can’t be used with Exakt systems, just passive ones.

[entdgc]

Subsonic filter can’t be used with Exakt systems, just passive ones.

My bad. Not Exakt aware so didn't know that...

[timster]

Still not following you, maybe my diagram is confusing? The red speakers and listening positions are all in the ideal rectangle with the possible exception that the left speaker "might" be just a tad too far to the left. The red star (me the listener) is in between the two red speakers. And, for the time being the red configuration is the actual, this is the way the room is setup right now and the sound is pretty glorious, as good as I've ever experienced. Are we talking about different things? Thx!

Actually no, I was thinking the actual listening position should be central between the ideal speaker positions. As there is no ideal listening position that would mean they would both have to shift to the left.

At the end of the day, if you're happy with the results then that's all that counts. SO also corrects for timing differences between the speakers and listening position so as long as you tell it the actual one, not your ideal one, it should be fine.

There is no such thing as an ideal listening position for SO purposes. So from your diagram, the red star shouldn't be there. In which case the ideal speaker positions in relation to the actual (blue) listening position are not correct.

[briardsrock]

[

There is no such thing as an ideal listening position for SO purposes. So from your diagram, the red star shouldn't be there. In which case the ideal speaker positions in relation to the actual (blue) listening position are not correct.

Tim, per Linn Help Line on 7-12-24



Also, why would the Optimization process ask, "are your speakers in an ideal listening position if there was "no such thing"?

IMO the red locations have been determined to be ideal, but they aren't practical, thus the blue locations are practical. Thx

[Mark57]

I think the point Tim is making is that the SO process starts (if you can) with finding the ideal speaker position for where you will actually listen from. So in your diagram you start by finding the ideal speaker position from the blue star listening position, as that is where you will end up listening from.

[timster]

As @Mark57 said, I'm referring to your supposed ideal listening position. Colin's email also only refers to ideal speaker positions.
You have determined the ideal speaker positions in relation to a theoretical listening position, not the actual listening position. So your ideal speaker positions are false (in relation to your actual listening position).

[briardsrock]

I could move the speakers to the west wall (akamatsu's question), but only for a test, because that wall is a "no go" practically, and even this would be difficult. However, before the cabinet was located where it is now, my Linn dealer helped us decide where it would go in this room, because we had the cabinet custom built. One location, very briefly considered, was the west wall but since we are also using the room as a video room, the 77" Samsung was not going anywhere on the west wall - see photo of stone fireplace and hearth on west wall. when I bought the M140s my Linn dealer came over about a year ago and he helped us determine the size and shape of the HIFI/AV cabinet with a goal in mind, that it would be a location suitable, to both myself and lovely wife. See photo of where my HIFI cabinet is on the north wall. In this particular photo, I have already spent considerable time moving the speakers and the listening position all around, but ALWAYS in the context of the north wall. Per my Linn dealer, rooms can have several "ideal" locations, depending upon the particular room, and things can be done, to make one room wall work better over time, as the whole listening experience and setup evolves. For example, my dealer has a listening room, where he has one setup along the north wall and another along the east wall, and I have heard various setup setups on both walls and he is able to produce incredibly music on either - they can both sound incredible! He currently has a $1M setup on hos north wall and it is the most amazing music I've ever heard from a HIFI. My dealer has been doing this for 50 years and I trust him. He is coming over Tuesday or Wednesday night after my LP12 has received all of its upgrades.

I am going to pretty stop trying to glean any more out of this discussion for now, as I am getting, what seems to me, conflicting advise, not from anyone in particular, that does not seem to line up with others, either on here or from what I am hearing from my dealer or from the Linn Help Line. Again, this might not be because it is cotradictory, it might just be that I am not putting it all together in way that it is logical and matches what I am "hearing" too. Also, my dealer's techniques are not quite in line with what I've read here or in the Linn SO documentation, and he has explained to me some of his reasons why he uses a slightly different approach. My conclusion in my journey at the moment is to wait until my dealer comes over before I over stress myself out and/or members of HiFi Kabin any more, because there are just too many variables and points of advise for me to digest at this point.

As several of you have said here, I am probably trying to do too much at this point, solve for too many variables. I agree!

Both of the below photos are what I have determined by listening to be the ideal position in my room ASSUMING the speakers go along the north wall.

Thanks to everyone here that has been taking the time to try to share their individual journeys, it really has been helpful thus far, I really do appreciate it, even though I might sound a little frustrated at times!

The below photo shows the red marked speaker and listener positions that I have found to "sound the best" in my room at this point , whether it is before or after SO, these positions sound the best to me. Also, my speakers are not located as in this photo because being this far out in the room drives my wife absolutely nuts! Thx!