Roksan Hybrid Vs Linn Hybrid V Linn LP12

[Paul246]

Hi again Folks,
I've just been finalising the tracking, anti skate and arm height listening to Jean Michelle Jarre's "Oxygene".
This turntable definitely has a different sound to the Linn Hybrid, it's rawer, more analogue sounding than the Linn hybrid. That's not a bad thing at all. It's much more controlled (definitely the arm) but has a very nice sound stage, although has a sharpness about it and a little less detail (maybe the stylus), but I'm quite happy with how it's working out. The noise floor has almost dropped away completely (silicone mounts on the arm board) this is more with newer Lps than older ones. So I think that's about it for the arm and cartridge side of things, although I may switch the stylus for the new one, just to see what difference that makes.
I'm going to start on the chassis tomorrow, bit of a reshape (this is an empathic/gut feeling) I'm not sure where that comes from, but I definitely feel it has to be, it's about resonance and guiding it to the exits I've provided. It will also make the chassis look better with smoother curves and while I'm at it I'll polish the sides to get rid of the file marks that remain.
One extremely good point with these unit construction builds is the ability to dismantle and reassemble with almost no readjustment, the arm board and arm come off as a single unit, platters come off as a unit, all I have to do is pop the bearing cap on, leaving the chassis for me to take to the garage and get to work on. Should be done tomorrow unless something drastic happens (like my wife wants to go shopping).
See you tomorrow. Paul.

[Paul246]

Hi again Folks,
Reshaped the chassis which looks a bit better than it did. Hopefully this shape will act as a choke for vibes/resonance as it lessens room around the 4th leg, there's about 25mm either side now.
No idea if it makes a difference or not as I'm working on/playing the Linn Hybrid with the Krown platter at the moment.
All the best and thanks for reading. Paul.

[petecallaghan]

Hi folks,
Done a couple of tweaks round the cartridge (Isolated it from the arm) and a few tidying up bits around the arm, height/azimuth adjustments etc. Tightened the arm collar bolts again.
I'm not sure there's anything else I can do with the arm and cartridge except put the newer black stylus on it. I tried a brand new bronze which was great but doesn't have the clarity of the black, even a used one about half way through it's life.
I'm pretty sure it sounds better and still maintains the clarity and urgency I wanted, the peak bearing is great and this turntable I think is getting to be as good as the Linn hybrid, it certainly has the capacity in my mind and the gulf between the two is closing.
I eagerly await Peters assessment.
New recording sent if you have time to listen Peter.

For me the new TT is now better than the Linn hybrid. There's very little between them presentationally, but the latest recording brings a distinct tension and build up in the mournful intro, that peaks with the 'scream' and launches into the song. This feeling of tension seems to be missing in the Linn hybrid. I cannot put my finger on something that I hear which accounts for this, but each time I play the clips I feel the tension on the Roksan and not on the Linn. I would choose the Roksan Hybrid on this basis. A big improvement over the previous recording.

[Paul246]

Hi folks,
Done a couple of tweaks round the cartridge (Isolated it from the arm) and a few tidying up bits around the arm, height/azimuth adjustments etc. Tightened the arm collar bolts again.
I'm not sure there's anything else I can do with the arm and cartridge except put the newer black stylus on it. I tried a brand new bronze which was great but doesn't have the clarity of the black, even a used one about half way through it's life.
I'm pretty sure it sounds better and still maintains the clarity and urgency I wanted, the peak bearing is great and this turntable I think is getting to be as good as the Linn hybrid, it certainly has the capacity in my mind and the gulf between the two is closing.
I eagerly await Peters assessment.
New recording sent if you have time to listen Peter.

For me the new TT is now better than the Linn hybrid. There's very little between them presentationally, but the latest recording brings a distinct tension and build up in the mournful intro, that peaks with the 'scream' and launches into the song. This feeling of tension seems to be missing in the Linn hybrid. I cannot put my finger on something that I hear which accounts for this, but each time I play the clips I feel the tension on the Roksan and not on the Linn. I would choose the Roksan Hybrid on this basis. A big improvement over the previous recording.

Hi Peter,

Wow! I thought it was getting there, but was not expecting that! Thanks for taking the time to listen and feed back. I told my wife what you wrote and she casually said "Well, that's what you said wasn't it", to be honest I don't remember.
Personally, I thought the gap was closing (that's probably what I said to my wife) but that's the trouble with listening all the time whilst adjusting, I always seem to normalise the sound in my head after I hear an improvement, mainly as I'm following a sound trail and the last current sound I heard, is the one I'm trying to improve.
These adjustments I just did with the cartridge and arm were because of your last feedback and that's what's so important about getting your feedback Peter, you are someone who can better objectify the listening experience than I currently can, whilst the adjustments are on-going. I can't thank you enough for your feedback.

Anyway, I've just been doing little bits around the chassis (changing the mix of metals) for better resonance control. Although if Peter's analysis is anything to go by, it's looking like the Linn hybrid will be losing the Krown platter in favour of this turntable.
It's like I've always said, I'm not a fan of any particular turntable, it's the sound these experiments are about.

It's looking to me like this experiment is now about the Linn Hybrid with Cirkus and Nima and this one with Peak and Ittok. I'm not sure the chassis make that much difference although the Peak chassis is easier to control resonance wise, (so it does matter really Doh!) rather than the diamond shape of the other. There is also the alloy bearing holder which I think does a better job than the carbon one.

So I can do you another recording if you can bear another analysis Peter. Let me know if that's ok, I'm grateful to you taking the time to listen but know it can be pain. I'm going to remove some of the older tracks from Google (do you see them all by the way?) I'm not sure how it works to be honest, but as far as I can tell you should have access to all of them.

Right, my wife is on her way out so I have a free run for a good few hours. Thanks for reading and your interest. Paul.

[Paul246]

Hi peter,

Two recordings sent for your perusal, one with the metal tweaks, one with those plus the Krown platter.
I think its nearing its limit with the componentry I have available.
Although I'm still thinking ha ha.

[Mr Onion]

Good work and working through the issues. Well done

[Paul246]

Thanks James,
That's very nice of you to say.
I bet you liked the last chassis mod (as I know you like curves) but who doesn't though, ha ha.

[Mr Onion]

I am in two minds about the 'arm' between the bearing and arm mount. It looks great but is it a vibration weak spot?

[Paul246]

Hi James.
The leg is there as a choke to slow vibes/resonance from either the arm or bearing side, the legs are great sinks for these, hence the extra one right where it is. I also cut away a bit of spare metal ((hence the option to curve) so that it really worked as a choke. I know it sounds like a (load of B-----ks) but it also works on the Linn hybrid chassis as well, so is not a one off. It was a well thought through experiment, with no loss either way as I would've put a hole there anyway, it just turned out that it worked like I thought it would.
I'm also looking at better suited metals to enhance this vibe/resonance sinking aspect of the legs. Which gets complicated with reflection, deflection, absorption properties of differing metals. It's just another well thought through experiment which will either work or not, but I think it will.
Like I said at the very start, nothing on these turntables works like a suspended chassis, it's all about how the vibes/resonance are dealt with, which to be quite honest, I think should be a major thought process for suspended chassis also, as the resonance in the sub chassis has nowhere to go.
But that's a conversation for another day (or thread, if anyone wants to start one) I think, and I really would prefer this thread wasn't hijacked for a conversation about that. I wouldn't mind as my engineering and vibration/resonance interest comes from (believe it or not) highly tuning motorbike engines, but that's also another conversation re transferable skills I believe.
Anyway, thanks for your interest, comments and for reading about this project. Paul

[Paul246]

Hi again folks,
Just remembered (a little late in the day perhaps) but I have the tranquility set up on the Linn hybrid which could be used be used better on this turntable double doh! That will really help out with this project as I think this has more potential for my sound (despite it being the peak bearing). The feet are better on that also which I'll also steasl for this one. Unfortunately for the linn hybrid, once this one has more potential, the Linn loses out on parts as I can go back to that later.
I'll give that a try tomorrow as that will definitely reduce the vibes/resonance reaching the platter, cartridge and arm.
That will help till the new legs are delivered.
Sorry bit late I know, must be ADHD or something worse.
Thanks for following, reading and your interest. Paul

[petecallaghan]

Hi peter,

Two recordings sent for your perusal, one with the metal tweaks, one with those plus the Krown platter.
I think its nearing its limit with the componentry I have available.
Although I'm still thinking ha ha.

Thanks Paul. I've had a listen.

Various adjustments: sounds a bit lighter and airier than the previous recoring, harmonica phrasing sounds more real, the initial vocals/guitar/wind seem tighter together, it keeps the tension building, and has more swing once the song gets going. I enjoy this the most of all the variations so far.

Krown: I think I hear more echo on the harmonica. It seems to lose a bit of the tightness between the different elements at the start. Perhaps it has a bit more detail but is somehow less cohesive. Has lost the tension, lost a bit of the boogie. A step back from the previous two recordings.

[Paul246]

Hi peter,

Two recordings sent for your perusal, one with the metal tweaks, one with those plus the Krown platter.
I think its nearing its limit with the componentry I have available.
Although I'm still thinking ha ha.

Thanks Paul. I've had a listen.

Various adjustments: sounds a bit lighter and airier than the previous recoring, harmonica phrasing sounds more real, the initial vocals/guitar/wind seem tighter together, it keeps the tension building, and has more swing once the song gets going. I enjoy this the most of all the variations so far.

Krown: I think I hear more echo on the harmonica. It seems to lose a bit of the tightness between the different elements at the start. Perhaps it has a bit more detail but is somehow less cohesive. Has lost the tension, lost a bit of the boogie. A step back from the previous two recordings.

Hi Peter,

Thanks for those and for your time and patience.
I was also very pleased with the various adjustment track, (still capable of more though) and I've got to say, I agree with you entirely regarding the Krown platter. I was a bit surprised as it's such a nice piece of mixed metal engineering. I was though, at that point, using the VP acrylic mat which was supplied with the platter and acrylic does no favours for the sound of this turntable. I've tried one before on the other turntable and didn't like that, that much either. (I should've paid heed to that), but didn't.
However, today, I have moved the whole shebang onto the Seismic sink (it had to happen at some point) may as well be now, and relegated the Linn hybrid to the other shelf.
I've gone back to the LInn felt mat, fitted the Tranquillity (that upset quite a few settings) and the Krown platter remains, (I bought it, so I'll make it work), it's really bugging me as it really should work but it isn't working with something/things, it's driving me nuts.
I've got it back to sounding something like again, the Tranquillity and felt mat seem to have calmed the Krown platter a bit for the moment. What's really weird is, that I feel like the Krown platter has upped the game and like it's lifted the lid on what the whole turntable is capable of somehow, I've just got to work out what's upsetting what.
Anyway, it's under way again, one step forward two steps back, till I get on track again I guess. I'm going to be at this for a few days I think.
Thanks for taking the time to listen Peter, I really do appreciate your honest analysis, believe me, it really helps.
Anyway here's a pic of the favoured position.

[Paul246]

Hi Peter, I forgot to say that the settings we both thought were the best yet are saved, sorry I should've said that as it sounds like I'm just steaming ahead and paying no heed.
So, just to reassure you that you're listening isn't a waste of time. They are now the new reference point for further enhancements and I can go back to them at any time if nothing improves further.
My apologies, I should've said that. Paul

[Paul246]

Hi James,

I think you were definitely correct about there being more detail with the Krown platter. I'm getting more of it into the sound, but still lots to go at.
I remounted the main bearing housing with different metal interfaces, mainly about resonance but also because the Tranquillity wouldn't fit correctly because of the cupped washers, it was passable, but it's now done properly. I also tightened up the arm board to help shift resonance out of it through the bolts. got rid of the acrylic mat as it was awful on this and won't improve the other either.
Trying it now with a silicone rubber mat which surprisingly releases more of the detail although it's also a bit brighter and the soundstage is definitely improving. Still trying out arm heights. I've also fitted the newer stylus 20 hours or so usage so better to hear the detail.
I've done a couple of recording for my own comparison, trying to keep track of the changes. Trying to get all of the clarity with an equally listenable flowing sound isn't proving easy but it's coming for sure, Tuning anything mechanical is always about finding the balance with all the components working in tune with one another. One step forward one step back at the moment which is an improvement on where I was yesterday.
Thanks for reading. Paul.

[Paul246]

Greetings Peter,

I think I've cracked it, just had my wife in to demo (she used to be an orchestral clarinettist) and she agrees that everything is in it's place, clear but not sharp, soundstage is massive and the sadness in the singers voice in School is very apparent. My wife also picked up on the expectation (tension) at the beginning. I'm extremely pleased with this set up.
I'm out in five minutes all night, well till late, so will record the track for you tomorrow. I think you'll be surprised at how it's come together. I think it betters the various adjustments one by a country mile. So this will be this I think as I think I've about squeezed as much as I can out of this set up.

Just as an aside, the Linn Ittok out performs the Roksan Nima by a fair margin just in terms of control for now, but we'll see.

All the best folks. Thanks for reading. Paul.

[Paul246]

Hi Peter,

New track sent. I personally think this is the new reference point, I'm really, really interested in what you make of it.
Thanks for listening Peter. Paul.

[Paul246]

Hi folks,
Been trying a few more experiments, still mixing resonance killers and it's still providing positive results, I've just got rid of the sound floor completely by introducing some metal spacers under the sorbothane feet. Because of the metal used it kind of tells me that the new legs will work. The new legs will also lower the whole turntable by another 10mm which should further reduce the capacity for resonance in the chassis/arm board.
Clarity, depth, detail, emotion and sound stage have all improved, the sound is completely out side of the speakers again.
It continually surprise me what can be done with the smallest correction to the resonance using the draining capacity of different metals, it borders on science/physics etc. which has been an extremely interesting diversion.
I'm still awaiting delivery of the new leg bolts and sleeves to finalise this build. Once these arrive I'll use the motor and mount from the LInn hybrid as it will fit the new turntable when it's lowered, and it's better suited, as this one was for the Roksan motor originally.
It's been a long haul with this turntable but an extremely interesting build for me.
It all seems to be coming to roost now. Like I said, it's not finalised yet but I'm very confident about the final bits of fine tuning now.
So I hope you enjoyed reading about this build, I'll be working on what was the Roksan Hybrid after this, but it will be a repeat of this really, as most stuff I've learned is transferable to that turntable, so no surprises.
So that's about it. I'll post a final pic when everything is finalised.
A special thanks to Peter for his honest analysis and feed back of the tracks provided, that was a great help whilst drudging through a variety of experiments, and really helped to keep me on track with the sound.
Special thanks also to The Kaptain for his excellent site and for providing this space for me to do this.
All the best. Thanks for reading and for your interest. Have a great day and enjoy your music. Paul.

[The Kaptain]

Special thanks also to The Kaptain for his excellent site and for providing this space for me to do this.

My pleasure and many thanks for your kind words

[petecallaghan]

Hi Peter,

New track sent. I personally think this is the new reference point, I'm really, really interested in what you make of it.
Thanks for listening Peter. Paul.

This is the best one yet I think. Slightly less surface noise at the start. The opening bars of harmonica are more musical and more sensitively played, and the tone is free of harshenss. All instruments in the start seem more delicately played and the opening vocals are more expressive and emotive.

[petecallaghan]

A special thanks to Peter for his honest analysis and feed back of the tracks provided, that was a great help whilst drudging through a variety of experiments, and really helped to keep me on track with the sound.

Not at all - it was v interesting and I enjoy practicing Tune Method comparisons.

[Paul246]

Hi Peter,

New track sent. I personally think this is the new reference point, I'm really, really interested in what you make of it.
Thanks for listening Peter. Paul.

This is the best one yet I think. Slightly less surface noise at the start. The opening bars of harmonica are more musical and more sensitively played, and the tone is free of harshenss. All instruments in the start seem more delicately played and the opening vocals are more expressive and emotive.

Hi Peter,
Thanks as always for your honest analysis. That confirms my own assessment. You will have noticed that I never dared to put mine first before.
I've got it sounding a bit better, but still working on the woodwind phrasing and voice emotion at the start of School.
My wife was blown away by the expectation (tension) this one created, a direct quote from her "You know somethings going to happen, but when it comes in, wow". I personally think the scream does it ha ha.
If you don't mind, when it's finalised I'll send you the same track and leave this one as a reference on Google.
Thanks again for your help with keeping me on track, I really needed it at times.
All the best. Paul.

[Paul246]

HI folks,
Right then, the new legs parts have arrived. A mighty fine mixture of metals as well I might add. Some still to arrive as I changed my mind a couple of times so bought the other metals as well, but at different times. It does though, give me a good range of metal mixes to be going at, and if one set of metals doesn't work as I thought, I'll have the ability to alter them one at a time, and have the parts here ready to try.
Anyway, as soon as the various packages were dropped in the porch, I was in the garage machining the various parts, just a few more little bits to do but I'm done for tonight.
I'll disassemble the turntable tomorrow and get them fitted if all goes as well as today.
Then, just the Linn hybrid motor mount to sort out once the legs are done. Unfortunately I haven't been able to do this as the legs need to be fitted first so I can work out the necessary adjustments. I'm hoping it will just slot in (unit construction at its best) but we'll see.
I'm hoping this mod will bring some more of everything, across the whole of the sound stage.
However, despite this being another well read and thought through experiment, as usual, it is an experiment and may or may not work, and for seventy quid or so has kept this project alive a while longer. Idle hands and all those sorts of proverbs or sayings. Fingers crossed.
All the best and thanks for reading. Paul.

[Paul246]

Hi again Folks,

Well, that turned out actually a lot better than I had first anticipated.
The turntable is a close to direct grounding as I dare for the moment, only 4mm silicone spacers doing all of the suspension/absorbtion. Usually when you get this close the noise floor raises dramatically, but not this time, hence I know the legs are doing what I thought they would.
This has brought more of everything and brought in the richness I was after without losing the peak bearing sound.
I'm totally satisfied with this mod and have still got further tuning to do as this is a temporary set up, (not everything is tight) as it only took about an hour to build.
The motor (Unit construction at its best) did just slot in with minimal adjustment to the feet as everything is lower. I'm sure some of you will notice the front leg is higher than the rear on the motor, this is because of the height adjustment. You know those two little screws that sit at the side of your motor to allow speed adjustment, well .5 of a mm there, equates to about 5mm the end of the front leg, so that's why it's higher.
Two pics of the temp set up.

[Paul246]

Hi folks,
I've been running through my list of comparison LPs and doing a few more little things whilst listening, tracking, arm height, weight, tightening this loosening that etc.
One of those little things was to insert a bronze spacer (1971 2ps) between the silicone pad and the Seismic Sink. I'd done this before with the other mounts but this time it added masses of ethereal depth to the sound and even more surprisingly gave the bass a sharper edge. I'm also back to using the felt mat instead of the silicone rubber as the bronze spacers and new legs made this possible again.
None of what I've been doing has altered the clarity, just added more detail to it and lots more depth, the soundstage is huge, uncluttered and precise without being overbearingly so.
I'm now pretty much at the point where I think this project is done, I'm extremely satisfied with the un-altered, purely analogue sound it's producing and not sure I can wring any more out of this particular turntable with the componentry it has on it. This is now my reference build and the Linn hybrid will soon enough be competing with this as I progress further with that.
So folks, this is the end of this project apart from the aesthetics and maybe an improvement to the motor mount. I'll post a final pic when that's all done to my satisfaction.
Thanks for reading and for your interest.
Thanks as always to The Kaptain for the site. (I sincerely mean that!) It's a breath of fresh air to find a site like this to do projects on and to share whatever it is that people take from reading about these builds. It's been a pleasure for me to document it on here. So thank you.
All the best folks and continue to enjoy the music. Paul.

[The Kaptain]

Thanks as always to The Kaptain for the site. (I sincerely mean that!) It's a breath of fresh air to find a site like this to do projects on and to share whatever it is that people take from reading about these builds. It's been a pleasure for me to document it on here. So thank you.

My pleasure, and thanks for the contribution towards the hosting